salgud

There is a very complete discussion on NPR's "This American Life" this week
concerning the treatment and mistreatment of Foxconn laborers who build,
among others, Apple products. It is called "Mr Daisey and the Apple
Factory". You can find the article by going to their website
thisamericanlife.org and going to the archives for 2012.

Briefly, it's about a stand up comedian/Apple fanboi who decided to go to
China to a major Foxconn factory to find out if the stories he's heard
about mistreatment of laborers is true. He hires an interpreter, and
interviews over a hundred Foxconn employees, and pretty much verifies that
most of the horrific stories we've heard about incredibly long hours and
terrible, harsh conditions, are all true. It's a sad situation.

In the second segment, the "This American Life" people do a detailed fact
check of Mr. Daisy's story. They verify that virtually everything he was
told by the Foxconn employees is true.

Finally, they talk with experts about this situation, and the conditions
these people endure. They are in fact, by our standards, terrible. But,
they are much better than most of these people have endured in the poverty
stricken rural lives they lived before coming to Foxconn. And, partially
because of Apple's urging, and party because of the high turnover rate (as
high as 20%/month), Foxconn is raising wages and improving working
conditions. Slowly.

So, overall, the situation is not as bad, from the high level POV, as it
might at first appear. The conditions are terrible, by our standards, but
not easily or quickly rectified. Apple is being urged to press harder on
Foxconn, and has started publishing the reports they do in their audits of
the factories, but they aren't releasing the factory names so that those
factories that offend the worst can be pressured even more to improve
conditions. That needs to happen.

Personally, I have to admit that Apple is doing more than I realized to
help these workers, and that the situation is not simple or easily
remedied. I will continue to urge Apple, when I can, to fully publish the
results of their audits and to press Foxconn, and others, to improve
conditions for these poor people.

It's a very enlightening article, and I urge anyone curious enough and
willing to hear both sides of this story, to listen the this episode of
"This American Life".

Todd Allcock

At 19 Jan 2012 10:36:28 -0700 salgud wrote:
> There is a very complete discussion on NPR's "This American Life" this
week
> concerning the treatment and mistreatment of Foxconn laborers who build,
> among others, Apple products. It is called "Mr Daisey and the Apple
> Factory". You can find the article by going to their website
> thisamericanlife.org and going to the archives for 2012...

<snip>


It was both interesting and entertaining. Daisy is an engaging storyteller.
A friend of mine had linked it on her Facebook page last week saying she
loves her iPhone but would never look at it the same way again.

While the bleeding heart liberal in me is horrified by the working
conditions, I also try to look at the historical aspect. Like Great
Britain in the Dickensian era, and the US in the industrial revolution,
companies beating the crap out of their workers to the point where the
workers organize and win better working conditions for themselves seems
to be the natural progression of things. Is this just "growing pains"
for countries moving from agriculture to industry?

For companies like Foxconn who could always just build things for less
demanding and socially conscious companies than Apple if the client's
demands become too onerous, Apple can only apply so much pressure by
themselves. If Dell, et al turn a blind eye to those conditions, Foxconn
and their ilk will always have willing business partners without altering
their methods, which would require real change in conditions to come from
within, just as it did in Europe and the US a century ago.

DevilsPGD

In message <jfa0rq$fr5$1@dont-email.me> someone claiming to be Todd
Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> typed:

>While the bleeding heart liberal in me is horrified by the working
>conditions, I also try to look at the historical aspect. Like Great
>Britain in the Dickensian era, and the US in the industrial revolution,
>companies beating the crap out of their workers to the point where the
>workers organize and win better working conditions for themselves seems
>to be the natural progression of things. Is this just "growing pains"
>for countries moving from agriculture to industry?

Unfortunately, that's likely the case. The fact that people choose this
work at all is also a testimony to the conditions there, if there were
better jobs, they'd take better jobs instead of these conditions.

Still, having moved through that phase a generation or three ago
ourselves, it sucks to be contributing to it elsewhere.

--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.

JF Mezei

Forgetting for a minute the issue of western nations losing their
soveignty when they offshore manufacturing and support to asia and
import billiosn of dollars instread of creating domestic jobs, I will
say this:

As long as workers in a sweat shop can leave with 2 weeks notice , are
not bound by contracts that make it impossible for them to leave, then
do we really have a say in their working conditions ?

Their working conditions may be totally "luxurious" by the standards of
the country the operate in, despite them seeming terrible by our
standards. And f teh working conditions are terrible, but they have the
choice of leaving and working elsewhere, then can we really criticise
them ?


And if western workers were willing to lower their standards, perhaps
fewer jobs would be shifted to china.

Note that if iphones were to be assembled in north america, you can bet
that the assembly line would be very automated and would require orders
of magnitudes fewer workers than what is being done in china.

One advantage of the chinese method is that it can be cheaper and faster
to change the asembly line. (such as when Steve Jobs got into a tantrum
and ordered the iphone's screws be changed to twart ifixit.com's service
for self repairs). Having to reprogram the robots that do the assembly
can take more time than reprogramming 20 chinese workers.


At the end of the day, western nations will have to lower their
standards while emerging powers will be raising them. Until this
happens, there will be a terrible shoft of jobs to asia, which will
continue to cripple manufacturing in western nations.


Every dollar americans (and canadians) spend at wallmart goes towards
strenghtening china's economic power and lowering the USA's economic
power. And every dollar spent in china means less tax dollars for the US
government which requires the US government borrow more money.... from
China.

(you'll notice the USA doesn't push on chinese human rights anymore, a
big win for the chinese government who now buys enough US Bonds to be
able to dictate policy to the US government (democrat or republican
doesn't make a difference for that)


To close, we shouldn't be criticising working condition at Foxconn, but
rather we should be criticising all the manufacturers who have exported
USA jobs to china, costing much to the USA economy. Tis shift is so
massive that it has made China a huge economic power and this is not in
the interest of the USA.

Michelle Steiner

In article <4f189f07$0$2955$c3e8da3$f6268168@news.astraweb.co m>,
JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> As long as workers in a sweat shop can leave with 2 weeks notice , are
> not bound by contracts that make it impossible for them to leave, then
> do we really have a say in their working conditions ?

What if it's the only work they can get?

> And f teh working conditions are terrible, but they have the
> choice of leaving and working elsewhere, then can we really criticise
> them ?

What if there is no elsewhere?

> One advantage of the chinese method is that it can be cheaper and faster
> to change the asembly line. (such as when Steve Jobs got into a tantrum
> and ordered the iphone's screws be changed to twart ifixit.com's service
> for self repairs). Having to reprogram the robots that do the assembly
> can take more time than reprogramming 20 chinese workers.

It would be easy for the "robots"; just change the screws in the bin, and
the screwdriver head on the robots. No reprogramming necessary. Come to
think of it, that's about the same for workers.

> To close, we shouldn't be criticising working condition at Foxconn, but
> rather we should be criticising all the manufacturers who have exported
> USA jobs to china, costing much to the USA economy.

BTW, although their plants are in mainland China (what we used to call Red
China), FOXCONN is a Taiwan (what we used to call China) company.

--
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

Howard Brazee

On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:36:28 -0700, salgud <spamboy6547@comcast.net>
wrote:

>There is a very complete discussion on NPR's "This American Life" this week
>concerning the treatment and mistreatment of Foxconn laborers who build,
>among others, Apple products. It is called "Mr Daisey and the Apple
>Factory". You can find the article by going to their website
>thisamericanlife.org and going to the archives for 2012.

That show is also available as a podcast.

--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."

- James Madison

DevilsPGD

In message <michelle-CD4B68.16462519012012@news.eternal-september.org>
someone claiming to be Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> typed:

>In article <4f189f07$0$2955$c3e8da3$f6268168@news.astraweb.co m>,
> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>> As long as workers in a sweat shop can leave with 2 weeks notice , are
>> not bound by contracts that make it impossible for them to leave, then
>> do we really have a say in their working conditions ?
>
>What if it's the only work they can get?

Then as crappy as the job might be, it's better than the alternative.
Better that job exist at all, than leaving people homeless, no?

--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.

Michelle Steiner

In article <2rshh7lika5qqtku4uramtkl05gtehq2j7@4ax.com>,
DevilsPGD <Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage@crazyhat.net> wrote:

> >> As long as workers in a sweat shop can leave with 2 weeks notice ,
> >> are not bound by contracts that make it impossible for them to leave,
> >> then do we really have a say in their working conditions ?
> >
> >What if it's the only work they can get?
>
> Then as crappy as the job might be, it's better than the alternative.
> Better that job exist at all, than leaving people homeless, no?

In other words, screw them because
a. they're wogs, so who cares?
b. if they get paid more, the price of our goodies will increase.
c. all of the above.

--
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

DevilsPGD

In message <michelle-579C80.22231519012012@news.eternal-september.org>
someone claiming to be Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> typed:

>In article <2rshh7lika5qqtku4uramtkl05gtehq2j7@4ax.com>,
> DevilsPGD <Still-Just-A-Rat-In-A-Cage@crazyhat.net> wrote:
>
>> >> As long as workers in a sweat shop can leave with 2 weeks notice ,
>> >> are not bound by contracts that make it impossible for them to leave,
>> >> then do we really have a say in their working conditions ?
>> >
>> >What if it's the only work they can get?
>>
>> Then as crappy as the job might be, it's better than the alternative.
>> Better that job exist at all, than leaving people homeless, no?
>
>In other words, screw them because
>a. they're wogs, so who cares?
>b. if they get paid more, the price of our goodies will increase.
>c. all of the above.

No, that's not what I said at all. My point is simply that sweat-shop
jobs are often better than no jobs at all.

While things can be done to improve conditions, it first and foremost
requires local involvement and until that happens, external forces can't
change anything.

--
It's always darkest before dawn. So if you're going to
steal your neighbor's newspaper, that's the time to do it.

Kurt Ullman

In article <4f189f07$0$2955$c3e8da3$f6268168@news.astraweb.co m>,
JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:


>
> To close, we shouldn't be criticising working condition at Foxconn, but
> rather we should be criticising all the manufacturers who have exported
> USA jobs to china, costing much to the USA economy. Tis shift is so
> massive that it has made China a huge economic power and this is not in
> the interest of the USA.

You were doing fine until you got here. We shouldn't be criticising the
mfrs who have exported jobs. We SHOULD be criticising all of the
CONSUMERS who demand paying the absolute least amount possible. We have
met the enemy and he is us.

--
People thought cybersex was a safe alternative,
until patients started presenting with sexually
acquired carpal tunnel syndrome.-Howard Berkowitz